Shawn Ryan Show #005 Navy SEAL Warrior K9 Dog Trainer Mike Ritland (PT2)

i've heard you describe it it's like a [ __ 
] chainsaw it's no different than uh you know   spikes going into your into your [ __ ] arm this 
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the show thank you let's get on with it the ied was the single deadliest counter 
measure that that we were facing in the u.s government spent billions on 
trying to figure out a way to defeat them the results were that a [ __ ] dog's nose 
was the most accurate and most reliable ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the sean 
ryan show this is part two of episode zero zero   five with mike ritland if you have not seen part 
one we cover his life as a navy seal operator   click the link above check that out now 
we're moving into part two where we cover   everything about mike's warrior dogs what 
they go through on deployment what they go   through when they come home thank you for all the 
netflix suggestions if you haven't gone to itunes   please go to itunes leave us a review with that 
being said let's get on with it enjoy the show all right mike here we are day two 
and uh this podcast is gonna be   all about uh your training with dogs and and uh 
kind of what the dogs deal with you know overseas   and and uh it's not about you anymore good that's 
even better yeah but uh before we get started   we've been talking uh back and forth about putting 
a documentary together and uh my marketing guy who   you met john howard has been really pushing us 
pushing me to do a documentary and so i've been   thinking about who i would like to do on in with 
and uh you know after spending the last few weeks   researching you i think it would be [ __ 
] perfect i don't think there's enough   information on on what those dogs are going 
through and uh and and and with your foundation   and uh i think it would be really cool to kind 
of showcase uh what the life of a warrior dog   uh and service is like and after service so for 
the audience if you are involved with netflix or   amazon prime or anything and uh you would be 
interested in helping us out or anybody that   can direct us in the right uh in the right 
way to kind of produce something like that   email me email mike uh leave a comment and 
uh i will leave a link where you can request   on netflix uh a show and so that'll be in the 
description if you guys want to fill it out   uh i'll put what we need to say on it uh that 
would really help us out especially if we get   a couple hundred thousand people watching this 
and everybody uh fires it up sends them a little   message then who knows who might actually [ __ ] 
make it happen that would be awesome i would love   to do it yeah it would be a real [ __ ] pleasure 
yeah so you got a lot of videos on your training   a lot of bite videos um and uh i think i've seen 
most of them one so anyways i have a pet too who   you met griffin the griffster the [ __ ] eater 
and uh yeah uh you have a video of uh walking   you some of your dogs without a leash and home 
depot and lowe's and stuff so i'll roll the tape so me and griffin did a little modified version 
of this but i think you know i'm hoping you can   give me a little bit of uh give me some some 
pointers here yeah on what we're doing wrong so   i'll just roll the tape for you real quick the [ __ ] look on your face is at least half 
of why this it's all business it is all business   with when me and the grifters me and the gripster 
get the training it's all business oh it's   [ __ ] great i love it but uh any pointers i mean 
he's off leash you're all [ __ ] business people   are looking at you the dog's not paying attention 
i mean i'd say you [ __ ] knocked it out of the   park i think they're a little worried you know 
i mean you didn't see anybody [ __ ] with you   that's for damn sure could smell that breath 
a mile away maybe but well griffin will just   look at somebody like i ate pieces of [ __ ] like 
you for breakfast with that [ __ ] and grin but   now getting serious i'm gonna look at my notes 
here but um in one of the books i was listening   to i didn't read them because i'm a [ __ ] 
slow reader but uh i did listen and one of   the first things you said in one of your 
books and uh this isn't verbatim here but   you're talking about canines have been used 
ever since the beginning of war yeah and um   and i thought about that and they're still used 
today um and kind of thinking about that uh   it's actually it's pretty [ __ ] amazing because 
everything else has been phased out you know we um   we used to use spears and swords and shields and [ 
__ ] horses catapults and all kinds of yeah that's   all been phased out firearms different firearms 
have been phased out planes fighter jets have   been phased out drones have been phased out and 
they you know they're coming up with new ones um helicopter everything except dogs has been 
phased out at one point or another and i mean   [ __ ] humans will probably be phased out here 
you know before too long and uh that just you   know when you think about it that's yeah well so 
to me the you know there's two things with that is   one is that it really kind of highlights just how 
important and and how effective they are you know   is that you know the the application with which 
they're used may be different in some ways to   to keep up with the technology i.e explosives 
weren't around you know in the in the roman times   but so having an explosive detection dog was not 
necessary but the way that they use their nose and   the way that they augment mankind is is largely 
unchanged uh that way and just the fact that from   an asset standpoint you know that they're still 
used uh in that same capacity whether it's finding   enemy soldiers and biting them or you know just 
keep keeping soldiers safe and augmenting them   from a force multiplier standpoint uh you know 
they're still just as effective the second thing   excuse me is um there was a study done at 
the height of the iraq war um and it was   billions of dollars where and this is where 
you know the the ied was the single deadliest   um you know counter measure that that we were 
facing as as american soldiers and so the us   government spent billions on trying to figure out 
a way to defeat them and uh at the end of that   study the results were that a [ __ ] dog's nose 
was the most accurate and most reliable method of   of uh you know finding and locating improvised 
explosive devices you know all the machines that   they tried in these machines are you know 
multi-million dollar machines in some cases   with you know the latest and greatest 
olfactory blower technology and stuff   and uh and dogs were still better at it 
than they were and when you couple that   with their mobile they're you know a fraction of 
a fraction of the price of most of the equipment   but they also uh can bite the [ __ ] out of people 
uh as you experienced earlier this morning and uh   and um you know there's an element of of kind 
of a slice of home from a camaraderie and morale   standpoint that having a cool [ __ ] dog with 
your crew uh makes a big [ __ ] difference so   uh yeah they're just they're they're truly 
remarkable creatures that way that makes a hell of   a lot of sense with the morale too um do you have 
any idea what kind of dogs they were using back i   mean way back when yeah so i mean from from what 
i've kind of read and researched is that you know   way the [ __ ] back in like the roman 
and spartan era uh it there were more   you know bigger melissa type breeds than the 
mastiff kind of breeds uh but it depended on   you know what what they were using them for if 
they were using them for defense and going into   battle they wanted big strong hard biting dogs 
that they would use to hunt [ __ ] wolves and   bears and [ __ ] like that with and obviously if 
they're that physically capable capable because   back then it was really mostly about brute force 
and physical strength and what have you so they   would outfit you know pieces of armor and [ 
__ ] collars with spikes on them and and some   gnarly [ __ ] that way so that people couldn't 
[ __ ] with them or you know hurt them as bad   if they were running messages and supplies and 
[ __ ] like that it would be you know a smaller   leaner more athletic dog that that wasn't biting 
people that was just really intelligent and and   taught to either relay messages or again move 
move equipment or things of that nature so again   just like today it kind of depends on on the 
purpose uh or the application in terms of what   uh what they're going to use to do it um well 
i mean they've definitely evolved with all the   uh capabilities that they're using them for now 
and uh and and i mean i mean they've become part   of the team at least in the special 
operations community yeah absolutely   but um i'm curious you know you've been training 
dogs for how many years now uh i mean so   in this capacity professionally for about 12 years 
um before that i i still you know used these same   breeds i just wasn't you know making a living at 
doing it for about six or seven years before that   and i you know messed around with training 
for years before that i mean at this point   uh over 20 years you know of training dogs 
of different breeds of different capacities   um you know in a lot of different ways 
so um and i i'm really glad that i kind   of started out with bird dogs and hog dogs 
and and from an animal husbandry standpoint   learned a lot uh you know about veterinary care 
and breeding theory and um you know nutrition   and conditioning and things of that nature on the 
hunting side because that that really augmented uh   once i started to get really heavy into the 
into the operant conditioning and training   theory as it relates to higher end stuff 
like military and police working dogs so   that that certainly helped kind of well uh or 
round out my uh my perspective and knowledge base   on just dogs generally speaking but um what are 
some of the you know uh we were talking about how   they used them way back when and i'm curious in 
your 20 years of training dogs how have you seen   the training and what they're utilized for 
progress the probably the biggest thing that i've   seen that i that i'm happy to see is a shift from 
using primarily compulsion or punishment and and   doing more reinforcement training now i'm not a 
pure positive trainer by any [ __ ] stretch uh you   know i'm not the click and treat for absolutely 
everything there there is a time and a place   for corrections just like there is with people 
or raising kids is that you know if i'm trying   to teach the dog behaviors and shape behaviors and 
and bridge complex uh behavioral patterns together   then i want that to be a positive learning 
environment no different than say a third   grade you're trying to teach them arithmetic and 
you set a math book down and they don't know and   you slap the [ __ ] out of them they're not going 
to they're not going to pick that up very well   and it's a stressful shitty way to try to learn 
something now so i want that to be a sterile   learning environment set the room up in the 
environment for them to make the right decision or   the decision i want them to make and then i reward 
them and reinforce that behavior on the transverse   just like with kids is that uh while i'm not gonna 
you know slap somebody for not understanding uh   arithmetic if you know you tell your child hey 
i need you to tidy your room up it's kind of a   mess and they say hey dad how about you go [ __ 
] yourself like then you're gonna get your ass   kicked you know and so with with dogs it's much 
that same way is that you know the only time i'm   going to use corrections is is if it's you know 
blatant disrespect and challenging behavior where   where it's bordering on dangerous which a lot 
of the dogs that i work with sometimes you run   into dogs that way that are so dominant that are 
so you know uh resource guard driven or whatever   the situation dictates that they decide that 
i'm gonna take a [ __ ] shot at the title then   yeah i'm gonna use force to make sure that they 
know that that's an unacceptable behavior but um   the other instance where i may do that is if i've 
shaped a behavior and i and i have done it so many   times to where it's a conditioned response and i 
know they know it and they're just kind of blowing   it off then i may give them a slight correction 
for that to get their attention and get their   their mind back where it needs to be and focused 
on what uh what they need to be doing but   but that's really about it you know whereas a 
lot of times years ago um and even today there's   still certainly some units that use it more than 
i think they probably should you know it was just   a prong collar remote collar a stick [ __ ] you 
know just you know beating dogs into submission   basically and that's that's not a good place to 
be when you know if i'm expecting the dog to go   you know away from me independent of the 
handler you know and have the confidence and and   spine and character uh you know to to go in and 
defeat somebody the last thing i want is a dog   with a broken spirit that you know is only doing 
what he's doing to avoid having his ass kicked you   know that's not a good good mentality to have if 
you're going to fight somebody yeah um portal uh   also what i meant just for example when i was in 
the seal teams i know they've been using them for   a while and and uh yesterday you had mentioned 
that you had dogs on one of your ops back in in   in the early 2000s i did not have a 
lot of experience with dogs in fact   we had a couple dogs on missions but they 
they didn't really do much they were more for   i think sniffing things out i didn't really get 
to know the handler it was somebody that kind of   was just attached when we got 
there but um i sure as hell uh   never jumped with a dog fast roped with 
a dog swam you know um any of that so   was it pretty common for the dogs in the 
early earlier parts of the war to be more just   a bomb sniffer or um when did it become 
more common for the dogs to be attack dogs   so from from the attack standpoint you know early 
on where where i think the biggest transition   transition has been made uh as it relates to 
special operations is you know early on and   this is by early on i mean post 911 is that there 
were no special operations units using dogs at all   and so very quickly as you start to realize 
you know [ __ ] there's ieds and explosives and   and caches and [ __ ] it would be nice to to have 
a capability very eod like to be able to locate   where these ieds and explosive caches are and so 
um what they first started kind of doing is using   regular military working dogs that were explosive 
detection or patrol patrol meaning bite dogs   and uh you know while that's a capability and 
an augment uh i think that they realized very   quickly that you know having a you know a marine 
mp uh you know or a navy gate guard you know mp   patrol dog with you know seal team six uh 
doesn't mesh up very well in terms of you   know their operational knowledge and and 
their skill set as a as a shooter and so   um it was while while it was kind of better than 
nothing it i think highlighted that they needed   guys either their own guys or or you know folks 
that were much more on the level as it relates   to operational competency to be able to go do 
those types of things you know so if you're   taking something that just has never done that and 
putting them on a high speed [ __ ] direct assault   uh you know that's that's a dangerous thing to [ 
__ ] do and there's too many moving parts and it's   kind of a recipe for disaster in some ways and 
so they ramped up uh having their own guys be   handlers as quick as possible that takes 
time you know standing up a dog program in   a unit that's never had one is no different than 
standing up a new special operations unit it's a   totally different [ __ ] skill set it's not like 
um you know hey we're to throw a sniper detachment   you know capability on i mean it's it's weapons 
it's already things that we're pretty familiar   with the tactics are pretty seamless to meld into 
with a dog you know no pun intended it's a whole   different [ __ ] animal you know literally and 
so it takes years to really get at a level where   you're kind of operating and you really understand 
the dog and can read the dog and you know no   different than the scenario we did today is that 
there are certain things that you guys just leaned   on me to say [ __ ] i don't know you know should 
we have him come this way or where should we be   standing or whatever you know it takes a while 
uh to to get to that point where you can kind of   predict what's gonna happen or probably you 
know the the mode that the dog is is gonna   uh operate in and so because of that um you 
know it was i think it was a rough couple   of first years of getting those dogs online 
and then once they did then it was okay well   now we're inserting via parachute via fast 
rope via [ __ ] 10 click foot patrol via   side by side polaris [ __ ] razor or whatever 
and so we need the dogs to accompany us so they   need to be able to do all that [ __ ] too and 
so it was a a hyper [ __ ] steep learning curve   i think uh but you know within a matter of years 
now they've got their own guys handling dogs that   are [ __ ] parachuting fast roping [ __ ] riding 
on boats you know getting thrown over a shoulder   and a [ __ ] back of a side by side you name it uh 
and they've had to to have the dogs kind of adapt   operationally to all of the different things that 
that we do so if if the capability uh is required   to have a dog that can locate explosives and do 
squirter patrol on out the back of a target or   have the ability to uh you know find 
somebody in a false floor or a false wall or   sandbagged with a pkm in a corner 
of a room or something like that   [ __ ] we need to bring the dog whether we with 
us we need to figure out how to how to have   that dog with us no matter how we're inserting 
and so it's bred out of necessity for sure wow   um you know with all the other departments that 
you that uh you know you deal with in in in a   in a small special operations team you get you 
know medical if the medic goes down everybody has   you know a [ __ ] ton of med training if the 
calm guy goes down everybody has a [ __ ] ton   of med training so i guess kind of where i'm going 
with this is uh two questions and that is one how   does the rest of the team interact with the dog 
are they scared shitless of them yeah they they   generally are not a lot of it's going to depend on 
the dog a lot of it's going to depend on how good   the handler is at communicating and educating the 
rest of the platoon how to interact with the dog   what to do what not to do and how proactive they 
are at integrating the dog into the team a good   mode or method of doing that is uh making it 
very black and white for the dog that's what   a lot of guys do is they'll you know when the vest 
is on the dog is at work and you don't [ __ ] play   with a dog you don't pet the dog you don't uh you 
know treat it like anything other than what it is   uh when the vest is off and you're in the 
team room or you're hanging around or whatever   you know then then you can let your guard 
down a little bit and interact with it again   some dogs are more suitable for that than 
others there's some dogs that it's just   this is a [ __ ] do not pet uh you know in case 
of war break glass kind of [ __ ] that just hates   everybody and and it's just best that you don't [ 
__ ] with them uh you know those dogs do exist now   in terms of what happens if the handler goes 
down there's there's also that onus uh generally   relies on the handler where he's gonna need to 
communicate to the people to the rest of the the   members uh you know what they need to do and from 
my perspective it's two things which is uh calmly   interact with the dog and try to get a muzzle on 
it try to get a leash on it and then you know just   get it where it needs to be if that's medevacked 
out because the dog is injured or accompanying the   handler because you know the handler is injured 
or whatever it is uh is that you know guys have   to practice doing that a little bit and so 
it's important for the handler to integrate   different people in the platoon to to be able to 
at least handle the dog not give them commands and   operate with them and do bite work and all other 
other types of [ __ ] but at least be able to clip   a leash to the dog muzzle them take them for a 
walk things like that and that's where again the   handler comes in and having that dog be a part 
of the platoon operations as much as possible   is going to help that because you can't 
explain to the dog hey this is the platoon   these are the good guys like you just have to 
have that dog around them a lot so that they   can do that without uh without too much trouble 
but does that ever happen we're a handler i mean   we're talk i mean i hope not but you know 
the chances are [ __ ] high with what uh   you know with the job description it is what it 
is but um has there been a scenario where where   the handler has been has been kia on target 
in the middle of an op and um i mean after   seeing what after feeling what i felt today uh 
the last thing i want to be worried about is   a supposed dog that's on my side but yeah do you 
know where i'm going yeah uh so things like that   you know do happen uh generally it's the handlers 
injured uh you know i had benny olson on and he   told a gripping [ __ ] story of uh his dog diego 
that ended up uh was one of the first two dogs   at the warrior dog foundation and they were in 
iraq on a on a mission where they actually lost a   couple of guys and benny got severely injured like 
unconscious you know um needed to be life flighted   out was all [ __ ] up and diego the dog was too 
and yeah it was a [ __ ] separating diego from   from benny they they managed to get it done uh 
but you know he's [ __ ] snarling at other members   and he's hurt too you know the dog is hurt and so 
he's in pain and and pretty reactive that way and   and yeah that is a reality of it and 
that's you know again that's why it's   so crucial that uh you know that the other members 
understand you know how to get a muzzle on the dog   you know and and there is a process to doing that 
uh but also that it's been done a lot so that the   dog is desensitized it's not the first time you're 
trying to put a muzzle on the dog is when you know   he's [ __ ] bleeding out of a femoral artery 
and the handler's unconscious and he's trying   to [ __ ] rip your face off for coming near either 
one of them like that's not the time to to try it   yeah you know so just like medical training you 
know the time to figure out how to give somebody   an iv is is not when they actually need it or 
they're going to die from it you know so with   the dog stuff it's the same way but again the big 
thing is just try to get a muzzle on the dog clip   a [ __ ] leash to them and uh and get them out of 
there and get them where they need to be so that   so the dog might be a pain in the ass you know 
i mean for for a non-handler but it sounds like   uh there are no concerns that it's going to 
turn and so it can i mean there are times where   where that dog like injures their their 
own team members to the point where they're   [ __ ] out of the fight i mean it's happened 
okay uh not often uh but it does happen you know   and again that's where having the right dog goes 
a long [ __ ] way in that regard but sometimes you   know this is the dog we have he's good enough to 
do the work he's a little sharper or more reactive   than i would like but you know we need one and 
he's it you know and yeah there are times where   blue on blue dog dog bites the wrong [ __ ] person 
and and [ __ ] them up and and uh you know you try   to minimize that just like there's times where 
we shoot each other you know doesn't happen often   but it does happen you do all the things that 
you can to try to mitigate that uh in training   so that it doesn't happen uh in wartime but 
you know sometimes it still does happen so   you know again the biggest thing is just 
conditioning the dog to the team as best you can   so that you minimize that that percentage chance 
of it happening okay uh so and and uh in general   would you say that dogs are very aware of who 
the enemy is and and who yeah the friendlies are   generally yes you know and again having guys 
all wearing kit around the dog and and being   around them a lot and going on on training trips 
you know where the dog is integrated as much   as possible makes a big difference the 
difference between you know some units and   other units uh police specifically is that um 
you run into that a lot more with police where   they've got a you know a dog that's that's you 
utilized in a swat application but swat only meets   two days a month to do their their monthly 
training and that's the only time that the   dog is around the swap members otherwise he's 
with his handler doing patrol calls and street   calls and things like that that's a good 
example of of now it's a real deal scenario   you know this dog's only been around the 
swat team eight times you know in four months   and uh and now you're going into a dynamic [ __ ] 
scenario where you know flash bangs are going off   and people are yelling and there's shots being 
fired or whatever and the dog fillets open one   of the [ __ ] team members hamstrings because 
he's just not used to him you know whereas you   know a high level tier one unit where that 
dog is attached with those [ __ ] 30 dudes   all day every day does every training trip is 
around them you know every [ __ ] day that happens   way less there so a lot of it is just conditioning 
the dog to uh to be what you need them to be   how attached how attached are the dogs to the 
handlers so and the reason i'm asking this is um   say you know some guys are more motivated than 
others and they really want to learn every job   and i'd imagine it's the exact same with i mean 
if i was in a platoon that had a dog i would   want to [ __ ] know everything i could about uh 
being a handler in case this were to happen but i guess my question is how attached are 
the dogs to their handlers and if the   handler was to go down out of the fight and 
could not give commands does the dog become   completely ineffective at that point or can 
somebody you know pick up pick up the ball and   and uh and and drive on and keep that 
dog uh effective in the fight sure so   a lot of that is going to vary from handler to 
handler and dog to dog and even unit to unit   i've seen some dogs that were so [ __ ] 
attached to their handler that yes they would   become bordering on [ __ ] useless if something 
happened to their handler or very very difficult   for somebody else to to now pick up the leash and 
finish the mission if it's a explosive detection   you know somebody trying to handle the dog in an 
explosive detection you know that's a tall order   for somebody who's not a handler but there are 
some dogs on the other end of the spectrum that um   you [ __ ] you know you you could hand your wife 
the leash you know and the dog at [ __ ] work   they're just that autonomous and independent and 
aloof and and not dependent on a handler and they   just love to [ __ ] work uh the the dog that i 
have here right now would be very much that way   he's just laser focused super driven wants to 
[ __ ] work all the time and and you know for   him he doesn't have that attachment to me the 
way that a lot of dogs or even most dogs do   you know so he's a dog that if you put 
him in that environment uh any any of   the [ __ ] handlers or any of the platoon 
mates or team members could handle that dog   no problem and then there's dogs that are kind 
of somewhere in between um you know so it it's   largely dependent on the personality of the dog 
and how how attached they get to their handler interesting you know uh i've seen uh pictures 
where um you know there'll be a casket of uh   of a down a down handler with a flag draped over 
it and uh and you see videos and and and pictures   where the dog will not leave the casket which is 
[ __ ] gut-wrenching yeah you know um and at the   same time it's it's actually uh pretty cool to see 
uh and sad you know um but but uh you know after   uh researching and all that um that was just 
one of the questions that really stuck out   to me but um so kind of moving on 
from that uh the way you talk about   psychology of dogs is is um it's like 
you're the [ __ ] dog whisperer over there   but um the whisper screamer maybe i don't know 
yeah but uh but um and i could go on for days   about different things that you've said but uh 
the one that one of them that really sticks out is   and i can't remember if this was in one of your 
books or if this was in one of your podcasts or 60   minutes or one of the million things you've been 
on um you're talking about the growl is actually   a weakness and and i really started trying to 
put things together with all the different things   that you've said and we'll go into a little more 
depth here in a minute but they are a lot like   [ __ ] humans and you you reiterate that in all 
your publications and all your content and that everybody else who doesn't know to include me 
takes that as like some serious aggression uh   like that dog is you know getting ready to 
rip my head off which i still think they are   but when you said that that's weakness um 
it made me think nine times out of ten the   loudest [ __ ] in the room is always the weakest 
link or the biggest [ __ ] bag yeah you know and   they're hiding some kind of insecurity which is 
what you said uh when a dog growls it's because   it's uh i believe he said it's fear but anyways 
i just kind of want to breach that subject uh   with the dog psychology and and uh and and and how 
similar it is to humans yeah so if you think about   it in the context of uh any time that you've 
ever been around a dog that's growled at you   uh you know what is generally the human 
being's response to a dog growling fear was is they in terms of the physical action 
that most people if you walk up to a dog and it   growls and shows its teeth and kind of pops its 
jaws do most people go go forward and continue   [ __ ] with a dog or most people say ooh you know 
what maybe i'm gonna [ __ ] back up on this one   yeah uh that's why they do it is that you know 
for whatever the reason is now i i think it is   imperative to caveat that while growling is 
is ultimately that the dog is uncomfortable   uh scared or at a minimum you know for for 
whatever reason whether it's pain or confusion   or whatever is that the dog does not want whatever 
is taking place to either continue or advance if   that's you then it is what it is if it's a 
stimulus that the dog runs into and it makes   him nervous you know sometimes you may be walking 
and something happens and it's not even a person   and the dog will start growling because they're 
not sure what the [ __ ] it is you know is that   it's a defense mechanism the same way peacock 
feathers are and that it's trying to communicate   you know the same way a guy in a bar is like i'll 
[ __ ] you up you know it's like you shouldn't   have to tell me that you know i should either know 
that or you just do it you know and and so with a   dog a good supremely confident dog isn't going to 
[ __ ] growl if he wants to fight you he's just   going to [ __ ] fight you yeah now just because 
the dog ralls doesn't mean that he won't bite you   depending on on where he's at in his fight or 
flight mentality and physically environmentally   where he's at if a dog is over in that corner 
laying down and you walk up and it growls even   though it's [ __ ] scary if it's got nowhere to 
go and it feels like okay it should or get off the   pot and i gotta fight this guy then they will and 
i will also say the dog that growls and and bites   after he growls is going to bite 
hard as [ __ ] because he's scared   really you know that the same way yeah i mean 
you see it in bite work a lot in the suit where   when you start to get into a dog's head and 
make them uncomfortable and you may get a little   growling uh you know on a bite and and sometimes 
it's it's less related to fear sometimes it's um   you know a host of other intangibles that are 
going on that are probably beyond the scope of   this but um but most of the time it's because the 
dog is a little uncomfortable and so but what you   can feel is that you know if you start to get 
in that dog's head and he's a little growly   while he's biting a lot of times you'll actually 
feel it and he's biting even harder because now   there's adrenaline going and the same same thing 
if you know when you hear the stories of uh you   know kids getting trapped under cars and the [ 
__ ] seven-year-old grandma picks up a volkswagen   uh you know because their kid was trapped under 
you know when adrenaline and all these hormones   uh are are going through and their central nervous 
system is [ __ ] taxed and whatever is that   uh now it's it's kind of fighting for your life or 
in this case biting for your life and many times   they'll bite even harder in those circumstances so 
um where you kind of use that to your advantage as   a human being is is looking at the big pictures 
you know is the dog behind the fence and you're   coming over the fence and they're growling in 
that case like yeah if you pull that that dog's   card and uh call is bluff you can get them to run 
if you're committed and you have the ability to   use your presence to communicate to that dog [ __ 
] I'm not scared and i'm coming after you and in   those cases then you know almost every single 
time the dog's going to be like you know what   i'm [ __ ] out of here if i'm working a dog and 
they start growling then i'll i'll investigate   it further i'll i'll start doing whatever i 
was doing you know to get him to growl i'll   back off and see if he'll get comfortable when he 
does i'll do it again and see if he growls again   and back off and then do it again and see you know 
what it what is it about what i'm doing that's   getting in his head to make him uncomfortable 
and i won't say that it doesn't matter what it is   but you may not know exactly why what what you're 
doing is is having that impact what's important   is to work him through it ultimately as a trainer 
decoy etc it's our goal and our job to make the   dog stronger so if you expose a weakness you 
want to you want to work him through that and   build his confidence through that if i'm you 
know an adversary a dog is coming at me and i   don't know the dog and whatever the situation is 
then yeah i'll use that to exploit that weakness   and ultimately try to uh try to defeat the dog 
with with whatever he's uncomfortable about but   so you know a lot of it's going to depend on 
on kind of what you're doing with a dog but   to your point um you know it's it's a an important 
indicator of where the dog's mind is at more than   anything and i will say that for dogs across the 
board is that our job is to read them you know and   they tell you a shitload of information if you 
a know what to look for uh b pay attention and   see do it enough to where you know you understand 
why why they're doing what they're doing and so   a good handler and a good dog owner period 
should be able to look at their dog and know   what the [ __ ] going on uh just because they've 
they've observed them a lot so uh so you you   can take a dog that's uncomfortable that's 
growling and and you can you can reverse it   i would say usually depends on how bad it 
is it depends on how slight or significant   what i'm doing is to make them growl if it's 
something really [ __ ] basic and and and me not   not trying to do it um you know then then it's 
probably going to be a bigger problem you know   in in bite work as you as you try to progress the 
dog through the goal is to make them stronger by   building their threshold for stress tolerance 
that's really the the key concept of bite work   is to teach them that when i put stress and 
pressure on them i want them to respond by   natural forward aggression and coming forward 
and so countering in deeper biting harder pushing   forward wrapping their legs around your leg or 
or whatever they can get and get their paws on   you know different indicators that say that 
that dog is is coming forward and bringing   the fight to me and then what i do is i use 
all of my body language and i take that pre   pressure and stress off of the dog which in 
turn reinforces to the dog that what he did was   what turned the pressure off and so when you do 
that over and over and over is that you condition   the dog to understand that hey this guy may smack 
me and stab me and punch me and try to throw me   in a trash can and slam me up against a car door 
or whatever and if i fight harder then i will win   and so you're just it's the same reinforcement 
principle as the dog sits and you give him food   is that when he when he fights me the way that 
i know that if he fights me that way it's gonna   it's gonna maximize his percentage of chances to 
survive that encounter and i reinforce that by by   turning all of that pressure off now he feels 
emboldened you know and so now he becomes even   more confident and then i put stress and pressure 
on him again i get in his head i rattle him a   little bit and as soon as i see that i freeze 
i don't put any more on but i don't take any   more off either because i don't want to reward 
him getting [ __ ] a little squirrely and being   in his head so as soon as i do that i wait for 
him to counter in and it can be the most micro   uh you know counter or aggression or or indicator 
that he's bringing it forward and the second he   does that i turn into a [ __ ] gazelle in a lion's 
mouth and let him completely [ __ ] dominate   me so that now he's like [ __ ] that that's 
what did it you know and you just keep going   back and forth back and forth overlapping those 
those drives that way um ultimately conditioning   the dog to be as strong as as his genetics will 
allow him to be his genetics are always going to   dictate and determine how strong you can make 
that dog and how much pressure they can take   there's going to be a limit to every dog some 
dogs can take a truckload some dogs you know   you're tapped out a little a little shorter 
than that or even a lot shorter than that   in terms of the growling question that's going to 
going to tell you a lot about how far you can get   with a dog and you're only going to know once you 
start kind of navigating those areas pushing the   envelope putting pressure on them seeing where 
they start to crack and then seeing how they   they develop through that you go on to say um 
that if if if a dog doesn't growl it's going to   be a lot harder to get into his head and uh and uh 
and train them with with the amount of confidence   they have have you ever had a dog that uh that 
either that didn't have a growling point or   have you ever uh have you ever had a dog or been 
training a dog that made you feel a little eerie   like yeah absolutely yeah one kind of correction 
on that and you know it's a small one but you can   still get in a dog's head without them growling 
i mean there's certainly times where i've been   able to to mind [ __ ] a dog enough for them to 
be like [ __ ] this and they didn't make a peep   uh growling is usually accompanying that but not 
always so just an important distinction to make   to your question yes i've worked with a 
number of dogs that earlier on in my career   there was nothing i could do to [ __ ] get 
in their head i would say at this point um   i think you'd be i would be hard-pressed to find 
a dog where where i can't get in their head but   there's two things with that that are important 
is is that it's not fair because i'm wearing a   [ __ ] bite suit you know so obviously that dog is 
at a [ __ ] enormous disadvantage yeah if i take   the bite suit off then yeah there's probably going 
to be a shitload of dogs that i can't get in their   head because they're going to [ __ ] me up too bad 
too fast for me to be able to continue to put that   kind of pressure on them um but because i'm in 
the bite suit even though it may hurt and bruise   you up and pinch your skin and sometimes they even 
go through it it's still they can't really hurt me   the way that i can hurt them you know so because 
of that and just with the years and countless dogs   that i've i've worked you know now i can i can 
flip that switch on pretty effectively and and   and turn all of that violence and anger and 
aggression and presence and and direct it   right into that dog real god damn fast and make 
him think holy [ __ ] i don't want to [ __ ] be   around this guy you know and so um you know it's 
a it's a progression i think in people the same   way it is with dogs is that i've i've learned 
how to become way better at mind [ __ ] dogs and   intimidating them and getting in their head and 
making them realize dude this guy's here is here   for bad [ __ ] intentions and i don't want to be 
a part of this okay um because they they all have   that limit it's just um some it takes way more 
to get there than others but do you have enough   can you give us an example of a time uh maybe 
earlier on in your training days where where   maybe you'd made a mistake maybe you didn't have 
the bite suit on and you were confronted and and   you were like [ __ ] i don't know how the hell i'm 
gonna get out of this yeah so um this was probably   eight years ago um i had a dog in that i got 
for a friend of mine that wanted to he had some   some security concerns and wanted a dog and so 
i just picked this dog up and within a matter of   days i was like hey man this dog is too much dog 
for you um you know he makes me [ __ ] nervous   makes my [ __ ] pucker when i clip a leash to 
him and he looks at me a little [ __ ] cockeyed   he's not the right dog for you and you know 
long story short he said you know it is the   right dog just i want the challenge i need 
something [ __ ] asap i was like you know as   the expert i'm telling you like this is going 
to become a problem you know no no i i get it   you know i'll sign a waiver whatever like just i 
need a [ __ ] dog now and i was like okay but you   know six months from now don't call me and say 
my dog won't let me back in my [ __ ] vehicle   uh and that's basically what happened but 
anyway just in the time that i had him um   he was walking into uh my garage and grabbed one 
of my kids it was a brand new expensive leather   pair of cowboy boots and grabbing started trying 
to chew him up and and i'm like [ __ ] you know   and i didn't want him to eat him and get sick 
or possibly [ __ ] kill him i didn't want him   to destroy him either but you know i told him 
to let go and he didn't and i told him again i   started kind of popping the leash and he kind 
of stiffened up and look at looked at me like   [ __ ] you know and just kept kept going at 
it and so i grabbed his his [ __ ] collar   and tried to choke him off of it and he 
turned around and grabbed me in the wrist   and [ __ ] broke it [ __ ] and uh as soon as he 
grabbed me um you know that was the the first   time that uh that a dog really [ __ ] came after 
me with with anger i mean i'd had dogs before that   that had come after me and and broke skin and [ __ 
] opened me up and things but but this one it was   just a difference in mentality in the dog like 
you you could tell he was [ __ ] angry about it   and uh i choked him unconscious and uh but yeah 
i i want to reiterate though is that you know   at that point as soon as his gum line was buried 
into my my flesh um the every thought in my mind   about being tough intimidating uh that i'm gonna 
mind [ __ ] this dog that i'm better than this dog   [ __ ] evaporated yeah um and all i could think 
about was how can i minimize the amount of damage   that this little [ __ ] is doing to me you know it 
took every [ __ ] ounce of fight out of me um and   and i i just you know squatted down and smothered 
him and tried to keep him from from moving and   thrashing and damaging me even more grabbed his 
collar rolled it crisscrossed it and lifted up   and uh and got him unconscious and as soon as 
he he let go i released like that and a couple   seconds later he went boom and [ __ ] grabs 
it again i was like jesus [ __ ] christ and i   at that point i uh i put him completely under for 
several seconds and then i'd grab the leash uh   open the door put it on the inside of the doorknob 
close the door so he was tied off got back out of   his out of his range and then [ __ ] sat down i 
was pale face [ __ ] blood everywhere and i was   just you know knees wobbly [ __ ] shocky like oh 
my [ __ ] god what happened and it felt like like   my wrist had been [ __ ] run over i mean it was 
just that pounding ball peen hammer you know throb   um and i i was [ __ ] rattled you know the first 
two minutes like holy [ __ ] um and so you know   as one example like you know again without 
the suit you know imagine you you've been bit   now right yeah imagine not having that suit 
on and having that dog come do that to you   it feels with the suit on it feels like a your it 
feels like your arms in a [ __ ] vise yeah uh with   nails yeah yeah nails would be the pressure points 
and uh and i mean [ __ ] my [ __ ] forearm is what   the bone was uh yeah well yeah and so you know 
once you've been through that it it becomes very   very apparent you know and i think i'm glad that 
you went through that and that uh you know think   about how you thought it was going to be and now 
knowing what it is and now trying to explain it   to somebody that's never been through it like 
you really can't you know even if you say yeah   that's what it feels like like until you actually 
feel that you you don't really understand how   capable they are when they're standing six feet 
away and the way that they [ __ ] look at you   and and knowing how how intense they're 
going to come in and grab a hold of you   like you just can't really explain that to 
somebody you know until they've been through   it but taking it a step further now that's what it 
is in the suit outside of the suit you know again   um it's it's a it's a [ __ ] it's a 
rough experience and again for me it   it made me decide real quick that uh you know i'm 
not here to defeat the dog i'm just trying to to   escape with as little damage as possible yeah mike 
i want to talk about the bite a little bit later   and uh how effective it is but but you do a 
really good job of um kind of describing dog   psychology and how it relates to humans and 
uh one thing that really stuck out to me is   you talk about how instinctive dogs are to 
picking up body language because they don't speak   they don't think like we do they don't have they 
don't think with a voice um it's it's so pretty   much all they have to pick up on is body language 
and how much better they are at that than humans   so i'd like you to go into that a little bit sure 
so you know a lot of times you hear people talk   about uh you know dogs can smell fear and uh 
while yes there is a a hormonal shift that uh   i think you could argue that there's some some 
scent associated with that primarily the the way   that dogs read people is through nonverbal 
communication and body language and a good   i think way to look at the disparity in terms of 
how how much better they are than human beings are   you know we think about this podcast 
as an example think about the amount of   information that's been exchanged between us 
and the couple hours we've been sitting here   body language has played a role in what we've 
talked about but very little comparative to   you know the the verbal exchange word wise 
and so if you think about you know you're   at a walmart parking lot you can you can see 
what kind of [ __ ] day somebody's having by   them walking across the parking lot 300 yards 
away having never met them you know not talking   to them can't hear hear them speaking if they are 
but you have a good idea if that day if that day   is the most miserable day of that person's life 
or if they're happy or if they're in a hurry uh   if they're confused or they're frustrated you can 
you can get a good idea of that from that far away   with all of those intangibles and think about you 
know again how that's even though it's that easy   for us to see that that's not how we primarily 
communicate now with a dog they don't talk at   all the way that we do you know they don't have an 
internal monologue they don't use logic and reason   to figure things out so every interaction that 
they have with every other animal every person   all of that [ __ ] is you know overwhelmingly 
non-verbal uh you know and body language and so   one of the problems you run into as a handler is 
cueing the dog you know and so they're picking up   on something as simple as eye movement uh you know 
interact with your dog and just look you know look   like that and a lot of times you can get your dog 
to be like what the [ __ ] is you know what is he   looking at over there or think about the mood 
that you're in you know how many times have you   been in a situation where you're frustrated that 
something has nothing to do with a dog and your   dog picks up on that and decides you know what i'm 
gonna go in the other [ __ ] room so they'll pick   up on the most minute everything else everything 
i mean you know again as a handler it's it's   really difficult to be hyper aware enough to 
to realize the things that you're doing and   it's basic [ __ ] i'm not even talking about 
handling a dog as a canine handler i'm talking   about uh you know when you tell your dog to sit a 
lot of times people will do that with their head   sit you know and they do that or you know 
they'll tap their finger on their on their   knee when they say hear or come or whatever and 
not realize that they're doing it or move their   head that way you know here or whatever there's 
all these little micro gestures and and nuances   in body language that we as human beings do 
that accompany what we say to them or what we   mean or what we're trying to accomplish and 
they pick up on that [ __ ] all the time um   another example is is is the context associated 
with it you know you call your dog over um and   you have food in your hand uh the next word 
out of your mouth if the dog you know knows sit   or you think he knows it is gonna solicit a sit 
response from that and i encourage people to try   it uh you know call your dog over the go through 
the the same mechanisms the same routine that   you always do before you tell your dog to sit 
but but use a completely [ __ ] different word   you know when he comes over say broccoli you know 
and and watch your dog [ __ ] sit and look up at   you like you told him sit you know and it's 
because you did all of the same [ __ ] things   and then went through the same cue and the same 
mannerisms that you always do to tell the dog   to sit same with grabbing a leash and connecting 
it to the dog and taking them for a walk is that   you know you're doing all these little things that 
are cueing the dog for them to understand uh that   that's what it is now how that relates to stuff 
like bite work and protection dogs and police dogs   and things of that nature is that when people are 
angry and they're violent and they have an intent   to harm they do certain things human beings act 
a certain way you know cops are very good at at   reading body language appeal because they interact 
with people all [ __ ] day long and then a few   years into being a police officer they all say 
the same thing like they get to the point where   you know just interacting with somebody on a 
traffic stop they know you know what the [ __ ] if   that person's up to no good or if they're just in 
a hurry or they're having a shitty day or they're   a legit [ __ ] criminal or whatever how many times 
overseas were you somewhere in yemen as an example   where you don't speak a lick of the [ __ ] same uh 
dialect or language but you know that is a bad guy   you can just tell by looking at them you know same 
same type of [ __ ] and so with them it's just   it's it's hyper uh focused that way and they're 
absolute masters at reading body language so when   you're training and you're trying to reinforce 
behavior it's really crucial that you are really   aware of what you're doing and focus on not doing 
certain things and trying to remove all of your   body language so that you're shaping the behavior 
without influencing it non-verbally that way   well you know i'm almost embarrassed to say uh 
but until i started uh kind of digging into your   content i had discredited a lot of uh that with 
with dogs and uh not realizing uh how intelligent   they actually are but will they well they actually 
pick up like uh emotional facial expressions   um uh well you know again it's it's all part of a 
big puzzle right is it the dog just like with say   you walk into a restaurant like are you just 
pinpointing one thing no the facial expressions   are part of the the context that exists 
that paints the whole picture of the room   to answer your question yes but does that is it 
just the facial expression no it's it's what else   are you doing what are you not doing you know and 
so just like with people dogs identify patterns   and behavior whether whether you even realize 
you're doing it or not you know if you see   somebody uh you know walking through uh they'll 
say the mall right and and it's a middle-aged guy   right and he's pale-faced and rubbing the back of 
his neck and he's looking around now if there's   not the context of well there's his wife and his 
three daughters that are driving him [ __ ] nuts   that makes sense right because that's the 
bigger picture whereas if that guy's by himself   and he's looking around and now it's like who's 
this [ __ ] guy or let's say he's at a park   with kids but he has no wife and no kids there 
like that's way out of [ __ ] place so with them   it's that same kind of thing is that when things 
don't add up that's when you see them cue up on   people and they're like wait a minute let me 
size this [ __ ] up so they're just like with   us they walk into a restaurant or we walk into a 
restaurant they walk into a crowd or they're into   a room filled with people they're sizing everybody 
up and if nothing is blaringly standing out   they'll [ __ ] ignore it they'll check yeah 
yeah okay nothing's [ __ ] going on but this   [ __ ] squirrely guy you know that's [ __ ] 
moving you know like he's on [ __ ] drugs now   now i'm paying attention to this [ __ ] guy and 
so that's that's how they do it and pet dogs are   are no different it's just how they react to it or 
you know the lack of what they're probably going   to do about it is is very different but they still 
notice it and that's where it comes into play with   training your own dog is just be hyper aware of 
what you're doing and focus on making sure that   you're not influencing the dog unless that's what 
you want to do in terms of teaching hand signals   and [ __ ] like that but have you ever attempted 
to train a dog without any verbal commands always   curious i've worked with deaf dogs before no [ 
__ ] yeah yeah and so uh in fact i've had some   clients that had deaf dogs and uh and we use [ __ 
] flashlights uh you know so you take a surefire   and the mark instead of the ch which a deaf dog 
is never gonna [ __ ] hear you you flash a light   and then do it and so you're marking that behavior 
the same [ __ ] way and then you're just teaching   hand signals so you know the the thing is it 
actually works the exact same [ __ ] way you   know is that yeah if the dog's not facing you 
you know you can you can use a laser pointer   or a flashlight with a tight beam on it and 
you can flash it in front of his face get his   attention and flash him and mark it that way but 
the the principle with how you're going to train   them is the exact same way and it's actually i 
would say probably even a little easier to train   a deaf dog than it is uh educate a deaf human 
being you know because there's there's less to   uh for them to figure out that way and the the 
principles are a little more parallel that way   because what you're teaching is just behavior 
and not stuff like you are trying to teach a   child you know arithmetic or how to read or [ __ 
] whatever but my uh my wife gets migraines and um   she swears that when she gets migraines one of 
the dogs comes up and lays on her head and i   assumed it was like yeah you're sleeping the dog 
probably just wants to take a nap with it but   the dog will actually wrap her she'll lay 
on her forehead and uh i mean what do you   make of that did you smear peanut butter 
on her forehead before she laid down no no   maybe you should i don't know the uh 100 you 
know one of the adages we talk about in the   industry and it's usually more about being 
nervous or uh amped up is that your emotion   travels down the leash and it absolutely [ __ 
] does you know now i want to caveat that with   it's more about all of the other things that 
you're doing in conjunction with feeling that   is that i have no doubt if you videotaped her the 
next time she had a migraine and went to lay down   videotape what she does how she does it versus 
when she just goes to bed normally you know it's   going to be very different i'm sure there 
are a number of things that she doesn't do   that the way that she normally would to 
to go lay down in bed you know brush her   teeth get into a [ __ ] night again you know 
whatever it is slap you around i don't know   put a suction cup dildo on your forehead maybe 
it only happens sometimes yeah but uh maybe you   need a better routine i don't know but you 
know so my point is is that you know you get   into a routine that you do it every time before 
you go to bed and so the dogs pick up on that   so when you do something outside of that that's 
going to be that cue to the dog that well this is   [ __ ] different you know she just went and laid 
down but didn't do x y and z in in conjunction   with you know just acting different you know your 
eyes are closed while you're [ __ ] sitting there   or you know you you look like you're in pain or 
uh maybe you make you know really almost uh hard   hard for anybody else to uh to hear or 
pick up on little noises like just that   you know or [ __ ] you know grunts and groans and 
[ __ ] like that that they pick up on you know   there's so many little [ __ ] things that again 
that you that most people don't realize that they   do that the dogs pick up on and the absence of 
those things are every bit as much of an indicator   as the presence of certain things you know so if 
if you do something the same way every time and   now some of that thing is some of that routine is 
missing that's going to make the dog pay attention   on the transverse you do something the same way 
every time and now there's several more steps   into the into the into the routine the dogs 
and be like what the [ __ ] is that so um you   can almost always reverse engineer when a dog 
does something that you're like wait a minute   why is the dog doing this it's different or if 
it's even if it's predictable is that you can walk   or work your way backwards and figure out why the 
dog is doing what they're doing most of the time   well this is [ __ ] interesting because if you're 
saying the dogs will react off of motion uh off   the human emotion and uh body language you know 
um getting into or i wasn't even planning on going   here but um service dogs uh are huge for uh guys 
coming home with ptsd now i know that my dog um   will react differently when i'm [ __ ] pissed 
off around the house you know if somebody ruins   my [ __ ] day i know my dog knows that because 
uh he won't come around you know so i guess uh   my question would be for somebody that has severe 
ptsd and uh is constantly very aggressive and and   you know maybe a little short-tempered maybe a lot 
short-tempered but you know always on edge and and   they're giving these dogs out for you know as 
therapy as you know to help with ptsd how do   those dogs react to that kind of stress that's 
consistently displayed all [ __ ] day long all   week all year you know four years yeah i mean 
there's two things one is is for sure it's taxing   on them it's no different than putting a working 
dog to work and that it's you know it's going to   be work for the dog the biggest thing is is in the 
selection is in finding a super social dog that   that is you know relatively unimpacted by that 
because there are some just those happy-go-lucky   dogs that you know whether it's a combination of 
not being that that intuitive as as to you know   anger or temper or things of that nature or being 
so confident such a good resting character such a   low drive from a working capacity dog that they're 
they're not reactive towards any [ __ ] thing   you know and so a dog like that is a great fit for 
that i mean i get asked all the [ __ ] time like   hey same thing like hey man i did [ __ ] nine 
tours and i got ptsd you know i want to get a   service dog you know is that something you do no 
i don't uh everything that makes a good dog a good   dog for what i train for makes them a horrible [ 
__ ] service dog on the transverse all the things   that make a great service dog a great service 
dog make them a terrible [ __ ] working dog so   um you know to your question it's it's really 
about finding the the temperament that's   appropriate for that to where they're not super 
reactive they're not super um you know high high   charged in terms of being startled by things or 
being super keen to every little [ __ ] movement   you know a low prey drive dog a dog that's just 
again has a great resting character and is almost   unflappable uh nerve and environmental lies 
no [ __ ] so if if you're saying a service   dog maybe isn't as intuitive as a as a uh as a 
working dog probably not how the [ __ ] are they   i mean they're the ones i've seen are extremely 
well trained yeah i mean so you know their   training is training you know irrespective of of 
what the level of drive is you can always find   things to motivate a dog sometimes it's uh you 
know food sometimes it's attention sometimes it's   the lack of interaction dogs that don't like 
it i wouldn't probably put a dog that doesn't   particularly like attention and affection uh in a 
in a service dog home but you know training is is   repetition and reinforcement you know just hands 
down you know so um you know i wouldn't say that   that those are related in terms of well if the dog 
isn't isn't maybe as intuitive as it relates to   emotion or drive or things of that nature 
that they couldn't make a good service dog   or i would even take it a step further and say 
that their their intuition relies more on certain   types of human emotion than it does reacting to 
uh you know social competition i.e this human   is showing aggression and dominance and challenge 
towards me and so i'm gonna rise up and challenge   him [ __ ] back you know that would obviously 
be the the last dog you would want to put with   somebody who's [ __ ] angry a lot uh you know so 
it just needs to be a socially more submissive dog   you know that has no [ __ ] resource guarding 
that's not uh socially challenging that's not   super reactive that is still environmentally very 
very [ __ ] stable and confident enough to not be   threatened by somebody who's angry you know it's 
it's a tough build to find a dog that's truly   remarkable and all that the same way it's really 
difficult for me to find a dog that has all of the   working characteristics but will still integrate 
into into a normal household well i mean i go   through several dogs to find the right dog for 
for the family application and i suspect that uh   you know most of the service dog trainers 
out there probably do the same thing you know   they have the the luxury of going to a shelter 
and then maybe finding good candidates there   because they're they're looking for a specific 
skill set that that isn't funneled working   drives it's just amicability and social um 
you know friendliness and compatibility so   they're they're very specific skill sets uh 
they're just very very different in terms of   you know when they're on polar ends of the 
spectrum in terms of drive okay that makes   sense um you know um continuing on with with 
continuing on with uh psychology of the dogs um   you mentioned a lot in in all your content as 
well about how a dog is not happy unless it has   a [ __ ] purpose and it's working and um you know 
um what i want to say is i think we just saw it   and and i my marketing guy picked up on it uh 
when we were filming uh me and the bite suit when   when uh duke ran up the hill and about took my 
arm off but when he was when he came down uh i   was talking to him because he was barking and 
i i said man i can't believe uh you know a dog   like that you wouldn't expect like a high pitch 
bark i was expecting more of a deep uh honestly   to be honest with you a little more intimidating 
of a bark now the dog is very [ __ ] intimidating   but the dog uh so john said you know hey you 
know the dog actually sounds pretty [ __ ] happy   and uh and then i thought about you know all 
the different things that you had said and   and i was like well [ __ ] you know even though 
the dog's about ready to eat me for [ __ ] lunch   and attack me he's doing what he's trying to do 
he's working right now and even though um his   work is uh obviously very violent he was happy 
so is that why do they do dogs have different   barks do they have a deep bark and a high-pitched 
bark or is the dog's bark pretty much the same   all the time no it's it varies uh significantly 
i mean if if you had to pinpoint or or uh you   know parallel the dog's language is is that's it 
you know their their bark and and what it sounds   like again is a window into where their mind is at 
today is a classic textbook example of a prey bark   and at the risk of getting too into the weeds 
prey relieves stress for a dog you know when a   dog is in prey drive 100 they're happy they're 
excited they're [ __ ] motivated and that's why   you get that high-pitched [ __ ] bark and 
i asked you earlier did you hear him bark   last night when i took him out late and he said 
yeah i think so i don't know if you noticed what   that sounded like in comparison to what it 
sounded like today it was the exact opposite   of what you heard today and it was because the 
the alpaca movement down at the barn in the dark   it was the most thunderous i mean it echoed in 
the entire goddamn valley i mean it sounded like   cerebrus getting his [ __ ] vocal cords [ __ 
] i mean like it was the deepest most guttural   [ __ ] intimidating like shake your goddamn soul 
bark that that i've heard out of him ever really   because he wasn't sure what the [ __ ] it was and 
there's a little bit of nerve in there so when a   dog has a guttural deep super low [ __ ] bark 
that means he's trying to [ __ ] intimidate you   similar to a growl okay uh and many times when you 
see a dog what what you won't see is in the bite   work where there's that high-pitched bark you'll 
never see any hair up on the dog ever last night   when he barked like that his hackles were up a 
little bit which i don't particularly like to see   but you know every dog is going to 
show a little bit of that sometimes   there there is a benefit to having a little 
edge like that a little defensiveness   a dog that's so [ __ ] confident that nothing 
ever worries them is a hard dog to to put in   the defense because they never feel that way a 
lot of times pit bulls are that way that's why   most of the time pit bulls even though they have 
crazy high prey drive and bite like a [ __ ] that   they're they're terrible protection and police 
dogs from an apprehension standpoint most of the   time because they're so goddamn confident 
almost to the point where they're stupid   confident uh is that you you almost can't get 
them to [ __ ] worry about anything in a bad way   just like with most things in life and that there 
needs to be a healthy balance you want a dog that   you can put into defense but you don't want a 
dog that goes into defense so [ __ ] quick that   they're reactive and nervy and edgy and biting the 
wrong [ __ ] people for not doing something that's   justified being bitten for to your question 
slash point it's neat that you picked that up   but yes there there are two disparate different uh 
barks in in dogs and and that's when you see them   uh and again as an owner a trainer a handler 
what have you uh it's important to log that   mentally and say well you know when we're in 
this environment i notice a prey bark out of them   i see the same thing let me cover the other side 
when you know when you're doing certain things   and you hear a defensive bark log that too 
and realize the different stimuli that elicit   a deep defensive [ __ ] uh defense bark as well 
and know the difference and and know kind of the   dog's threshold of what what elicits both of those 
um one of the things that you know people will say   like the dog's in a crate and a kid runs by 
and he barks that's a a big indicator again   is it a high-pitched prey bark because there's 
just movement or is it a guttural low bark a   gutter or a low bark for kids running back and 
forth would be a huge [ __ ] red flag for me   if i was going to put a a dog in a house with 
kids or something like that i don't particularly   want to see a prey bark but you know i can 
manage that and and condition the dog to   to ignore that much more than a dog that feels 
threatened and has a guttural deep defensive   bark with something that he shouldn't have 
so again it's it's one piece of the puzzle   that you know for somebody in my position or 
really anybody uh trying to evaluate and getting   to know your dog better is that those things 
are windows into the dog's [ __ ] mind as to   as to what they think about the different 
stimuli that they come in contact with   well um you mentioned prey drive and that's 
exactly where i want to move into next   uh you talk about it and and you talk about it 
a ton and the different levels of prey drive   and uh can a dog have i mean you kind of just 
said it i believe with the pit bulls but can   a dog have too much prey drive what is the right 
amount you're looking for when you train a dog so   for for police military even personal protection 
work i want a significant amount on the personal   protection dog side i like dogs with a little 
less they still need to have it they still need to   have enough to to want to play ball and and if i'm 
cracking a whip or a decoys running away that that   incites them but it's it's far more manageable 
for a military working dog or police dog scale   of one to ten [ __ ] 12.

On a prey drive you want 
a 12. yeah i want as much as i can [ __ ] get out   of them absolutely i want it to be bordering on 
unmanageable okay and here's why is that when   i talk about doing the overlapping of prey and 
defense uh in bite work and building that stress   threshold so you know again uh prey relieves 
stress so when the dog is in prey drive they're   happy they're emboldened they're they're enjoying 
it they're driven firing on all cylinders when you   start to put them in the defense drive that's when 
when now stress starts to build and you can see it   their their pupils will dilate their lips move 
different their tail may set down a little lower   excuse me their ears may move in different be 
pinned back more than i'd like to see they may   stiffen up they may get a little chewy in their 
grip they may seem like they're not sure they   might start getting whale eyed and looking 
around they'll do all these different things   and and you'll know that when you're at the 
point where if you put really any more pressure   on them that they're going to crack and it's 
going to be counterproductive that's when you   when you freeze and again you don't back off 
you just don't put any more on and then you let   them make that decision now once they make the 
decision to come come back and and come forward   then now i i go back into pray and for me to go 
into pray that's high pitched screaming on my end   that's flailing around and moving that's turning 
my head away that's letting them push me back   all the things that you see predatorily in in the 
animal kingdom across the board what do predators   do well they don't [ __ ] scream you know they 
think think of a lion stalking something it's   not making any [ __ ] noise fierce [ __ ] eye 
contact you know crouching down slow methodical   very [ __ ] calculated movement right so that's 
going to put a dog in defense because you're   you're doing predatorial body language to them so 
that's going to raise the stress in the dog that's   combatting you once he shows me that he wants 
to fight me now i turn into the [ __ ] gazelle   i scream i flop around i let him physically 
dominate me that relieves all of that stress by   putting him back into prey drive emboldens him 
and conditions him to work through that and so understanding that is really the key concept for bringing the most out of out of a bite dog while 
you're working them in that capacity to your   question about why i want that kind of prey drive 
the higher that is the more i can use that to   help the dog through stressful situations uh by 
by relying on his ridiculous [ __ ] prey drive   i've seen some dogs with prey drive so high 
that it almost didn't matter if they had a   defensive side to them or not because they 
were so [ __ ] keyed up on something and and   so [ __ ] about chasing something to where if 
you just condition them to to go through your   series uh you know whether it's grabbing their 
collar slapping them on the ribs and making   a preparatory command or whatever is that you 
you go through that now the dog knows whatever   standing in front of me is it their prey drive is 
so [ __ ] high that when they go in there they can   run through a goddamn barbed wire fence it could 
be a building that's on fire and they don't even   realize it because their drive is so high it's 
carrying them through all of that [ __ ] and so   for if it's just a working application yes i i 
want as much [ __ ] prey drive as i can possibly   find in a dog a dog like duke it's it's a [ __ ] 
11.

pexels photo 5749804

You know it's really [ __ ] high that dog you   know wants to chase absolutely [ __ ] everything 
and so when when he's biting you there's a lot of   things you can do to him that he's not even gonna 
[ __ ] notice uh no different than you in a street   fight right is it when it's uh you know when 
you're in that mentality and you don't feel pain   quite the same way because you're so loaded and 
[ __ ] drive to to do what you're doing you know   they're they're very much in that same mentality 
when their drive is is really high that way wow for um for the for the home protection dog scale 
of one to ten what are you looking for prairie   drive like a five or six a five or six yeah i mean 
to me that's a it's a very nuanced like it's it's   kind of a gut feeling or it's you just you get a 
sense of of how reactive and how driven they are   and i want just enough to be able to train them 
what i want them to do just enough to be able   to overlap drives and build their threshold and 
make them uh able to put up with some [ __ ] in   the bite work but that's it you know okay um 
a dog like duke as an example to to get him   to where kids could play soccer in front of him 
and him just lay down and [ __ ] and watch it   would be almost [ __ ] impossible you can do it 
but you i mean it would take a an absurd amount   of conditioning and training that you would have 
to maintain [ __ ] constantly to to have him in an   environment like that where he's not just losing 
his goddamn mind watching that think about that   dog now in a household with three kids under 
the age of five like that's a [ __ ] nightmare   you know so it's just like with finding 
the the right dog for military and police   application selection is everything one of 
the things that seal training has taught me   i've transferred over into dogs very much that 
same way is that buds is a selection process and   it's really [ __ ] good at what it does and so 
i take that same approach and that my selection   process is almost [ __ ] impossible it's absurdly 
difficult for me to say yes this dog passes for   whatever you know [ __ ] capacity i want 
them to work in and i keep my standards   supremely high because that's going to make my 
job easier to train them and it's going to make   the end users life way [ __ ] easier for the 
application that they actually have them in   wow when if you have a dog um like duke 
with a with a very very high prey drive   i'm just curious uh once he has 
his prey once he's got his bite   say you don't stop them how long is it how long is 
that going to go on you know i mean uh is it good   yeah i mean it's [ __ ] i mean really until 
you stop him or the dog is so exhausted he   just can't go anymore so it's he will go into 
physical exhaustion absolutely he will yeah   and there's there's you know times where 
uh that that can happen yeah you know i   i know people that uh you know their own dogs 
turned on them you know they were really nasty   [ __ ] dogs or whatever and the dog reacted 
you know whatever the circumstances were and   you know they were they were battling 
out for 45 [ __ ] minutes with their dog   or instances in police applications where 
because of the environment that the dog is in   i'll give you a gory [ __ ] example is that 
it was a warehouse as a robbery suspect police   showed up had a dog they saw the guy go into some 
ventilation duct that was you know about whatever   [ __ ] 20 inches 24 inches you know big enough 
to crawl in but not not near big enough to turn   around and he's in this [ __ ] warehouse they know 
he's in there where they sent the dog in after him   and so the dog came in after him and got him in 
his [ __ ] hamstring and ass area because that's   that's what was there and and for the better 
part of an hour literally ate his [ __ ] ass   i mean the guy was unconscious shocky from the 
bottom of his ass to the back of his knee was   was just [ __ ] bone do they always stay in one 
section it depends you know a lot of it's going   to depend on you know in a situation like that 
yeah because that's really all that's accessible   uh but it took you know the police you know a [ 
__ ] long time to be able to get up there and cut   the duct out and get both him and the dog house 
i mean i almost killed the guy uh high drive dog   uh you know only one spot to focus on so yeah it's 
a [ __ ] worst case scenario now let's say where   you were at if if it was just you out in the woods 
and the dog got got a hold of you and for whatever   reason you know the dog got loose from somebody 
or whatever just there was nobody to intervene   uh a lot of it's gonna depend on what you do 
what you don't do how much open terrain there   is you know how much movement there is you know 
when i was telling you to give him a little bit   of movement if you sit there and just are totally 
still and frozen like this he he may after a few   minutes let go and grab you somewhere else you 
know if you pass out from shock in her face down   yeah he's probably gonna and has just unfettered 
access he's going to work you over until he's   exhausted and he may go several spots he may stick 
to one spot it's just you know there's a lot of   a lot of variables there that are going to kind 
of dictate some of it is the dog some of it's   the environment some of it's the the person 
damn well moving into uh you know the bite   you call it bite force um which i can't wait 
to talk about uh today when i was out there   you know even with that with that suit on uh 
i mean that's [ __ ] intimidating you know   and uh i wasn't as uh i wasn't so intimidated 
about him biting my arm but i'll tell you man   i was [ __ ] nervous as [ __ ] that he 
was gonna miss my arm and grab my throat   or uh or anything that wasn't covered by the 
bite suit because when he did bite um i mean that   you had mentioned it uh before several times you 
know people that think oh you know i'll just punch   the [ __ ] dog or or or kick him or strangle 
him or whatever and uh that isn't gonna work   and i figured that out real fast it's 
they're not letting go it's like a vice   um with nails in it and uh 
it's a constant pressure and   that pressure if he does let up it's only 
because it's about to be more pressure   yeah um so he didn't let up uh maybe for like a 
split second you know and uh we'll roll the tape   and you can see it uh on screen but every time uh 
there was you know just that fraction of a second   where he let up it was because he was getting 
more leverage and more leverage and um and and and   finding it seemed like he was finding like a sweet 
spot to where he could uh get the maximum amount   of maximum amount of force on my arm and uh and 
then until you were there to get him off but um   so anyways i was that [ __ ] that thought you know 
i thought that now uh you've made me a believer   yeah and um and uh i've heard you describe 
it it's like a [ __ ] chainsaw yeah so you   know the thing to keep in mind is that even with 
that suit on the amount of pressure that you feel   uh gives you a healthy respect for it but when 
there when there's not you know that preventative   measure from you know [ __ ] tooth going gum 
deep into your flesh and just i mean it is it's   the the mechanics of the teeth into your flesh 
and the disparity in hardness coupled with   the force behind their jaw while they're doing 
it and then the you know anywhere from 50 to   90 pounds of body weight you know shaking 
and moving on top of that it is i mean it's   it's no different than uh you know spikes 
going into your into your [ __ ] arm and been   somebody treating it like a goddamn joystick 
is that it's gonna do a ton of damage   and so um the one thing that's very common is 
people say or they ask you know how how hard   does a dog bite you know like what's the psi 
behind it and the [ __ ] it depends it's like   saying how hard does a human being punch it's like 
well some of them will [ __ ] rip your head off   and some of them you know it may hurt but it's not 
going to knock you out and everything in between   all of these dogs bite hard enough to [ __ ] 
you up you know some of them bite way harder   than others i mean there's some that'll break 
your [ __ ] bones i mean i've been a victim of   that more than once uh you know some of them you 
know much less than that some of them even harder   than that um but the the overall bite force is is 
magnified dramatically by the fact that it's it's   not just the pressure with a flat surface it's 
you know spikes and serrated triangles going   into soft flesh and then being moved around 
and tugged on and things of that nature so   um it is a very violent process now 
i will say from a training standpoint   and you talked about it a little bit is that you 
know the the split seconds that he let up you felt   that he was getting deeper and there was kind 
of a sweet spot one of the things that we teach   uh in the in the bite work also another 
layer of it is that when they're biting if they're grabbing real shallow right they're 
not going to be as strong no different than if   you try to grab my wrist like this towards the 
first is like that you're going to have way more   leverage by getting as much of my wrist in your 
in your hand as possible and so they understand   that inherently but to take it a step further is 
that because the suit is on i don't want a dog   being reinforced to just have suit material where 
you can't feel them and so when i'm in a bite suit   i wear the thinnest bite suit that i can possibly 
stand with no gauntlets or wraps or anything   underneath and if i can't feel him i won't give 
him any [ __ ] prey movement to to reinforce or   reward that bite i'll be boring and whatever and 
wait for him to counter in and go deeper and find   me that way if whether the guy is [ __ ] naked or 
wearing a north face puffy jacket and a carhartt   uh shell over top of it is that the dog is gonna 
bite until he finds you and when he finds you   that's when he gets rewarded because that's what 
that's what it needs to be because if you have a   dog that and you can imagine you got a big loose [ 
__ ] flowing puffy jack and he just grabs material   and is tugging well now that doesn't hurt right 
so that's not really neutralizing and now you can   [ __ ] the dog up so i don't want the dog 
just grabbing [ __ ] and pulling on it   sometimes you do see police dogs that have been 
trained that way unfortunately and i disagree   with it anytime i do seminars or workshops 
or conferences with any departments i always   you know explain why i disagree with that and and 
from a tactic standpoint i want the dog searching   for [ __ ] bone and i want him to get as much 
of it in his mouth as possible because that's   going to give him the best chance at getting 
out of that situation alive and ultimately   neutralizing that threat but um the bite pressure 
is is uh you know it's one of those things that i   wouldn't say it's controversial but it's a big 
ticket item in the in the dog industry because   uh you know everybody wants to know how how hard 
the [ __ ] dog bites but um again the short answer   is they all bite hard enough to [ __ ] you up 
when you don't have a big big puffy suit on yeah   well i don't know how the [ __ ] you relate psi 
to pain but if anybody does want to know how   hard a dog bites uh you can go to my grill 
and then i'm sure i'd be happy to show you   but uh short answer is [ __ ] hard yeah um 
that's interesting though so the the reward   the dog's reward is the struggle so i think that's 
what you're saying so if you're not struggling   they're gonna find the spot that makes you [ __ 
] struggling and uh so is that so if somebody   were to pass out uh go into shock and pass out or 
maybe [ __ ] blood loss i don't know you know and   there is no more movement are they still going 
to look for that reward and just yeah eat your   entire body well yeah so again i hate to hate to 
say it depends every [ __ ] every question but   the the the struggle equaling the reward example 
i want to talk about that for a second is that   you know have you ever played tug of war with a 
dog yeah so you know when you if you stop tugging   what does the dog do it gets bored but if it's a 
dog that really wants to play will they tug harder   yeah so if in these dogs it's you know at 
a super high level of that so yes they'll   they'll get bored and they may start to tug harder 
and if there's still nothing then that's when they   may let go and we'll let me try it here then 
and now i'm gonna dig the [ __ ] out of that   and shake the [ __ ] out of it and it's not there 
okay well let me try here then and then they'll   they may move around and again if you're on 
conscious and you have no [ __ ] suit on you're   going to turn into a human [ __ ] pin cushion 
um that way if if the dog gets a little bored   and is trying to get you to squirm and squeal and 
so um you know that that struggle is more about um   the dog understanding that they're causing pain 
and and inflicting harm and things of that nature   uh if you've ever watched a cat with a mouse 
you know they kind of play with it and when it's   squealing and screaming like it emboldens the cat 
and they [ __ ] with it harder and want to scream   even more you know most animals unfortunately are 
a little [ __ ] twisted that way and that you know   it makes them feel powerful when they grab things 
and they squirm and shake and scream and it just   in it further incites that prey instinct to to 
capture and possess cory or pray or or whatever   so um you know it's just again understanding that 
concept you can use that to your advantage to   ultimately use that as a reinforcement component 
while you're doing bite work to reward the bite   behavior they're not even necessarily related 
it's just understanding that this makes the dog   feel good removes a lot of the [ __ ] stress that 
he's under by me being you know in his head and   ultimately in incites further [ __ ] prey drive 
by doing it so i'm gonna use that when the dog   you know finds me in the suit and counters in or 
if i put pressure on him and he comes forward i'm   going to use that that prey instinct that he has 
you know to my advantage by rewarding him for it   so that i get that behavior more and more often or 
in a uh in a greater capacity to him you know um   i see a lot of these pictures on the gram 
and and i've seen a couple videos and   of dogs on target overseas uh you know in 
the middle east and these [ __ ] dogs i mean   look like they just ate an entire man yeah 
um i mean blood all over their face blood   all over the jacket blood i mean literally 
dripping out of their [ __ ] mouth and um where do you train these dogs to bite so 
it's a great question and i think a lot   of people think that the dog will you know go 
for the throat or the crotch or [ __ ] anywhere   what i like to do is two things is i like to give 
the dog a front target and a rear target in terms   of a human being is that if they are coming uh 
towards somebody facing them i train them to come   into the into the left bicep area or if the person 
puts either of their hands in front of their face   then they they get the exterior of whatever 
forearm if they put both it's just you know   it's one of the two of them if it's from the back 
and the dog is running fast typically it'll be   the right tricep which facing a human being 
that's basically the same spot the dog is going   to the top right [ __ ] corner of the human being 
um sometimes if it's you know a transporter or a   you know that's walking and it's a quick movement 
then then it may go into the back right right knee   um again logistically if if it's not you know 
a prey scenario where somebody's running and   fleeing at a at a high speed and they're in real 
close then then a lot of times the dog will go   low or we'll have them go low depending on what 
they can get to or not so they're looking for   the first thing that's presented uh sort of i mean 
early on we'll do what we call stapling the dog on   like you'll grab them by the jowls and place them 
on that [ __ ] spot and do it over and over until   they naturally go there and and i do think that 
it's important to teach a dog to target certain   areas plural not just one if you if you teach a 
dog target one [ __ ] area and that's all they   ever do and then that's taken away from them a lot 
of times dogs will be confused and they may just   sit there barking at them and because they're like 
what the [ __ ] it doesn't compute so i do like to   do you know top and bottom at least give them a 
few different target areas but then also teach   them past that and you know once that's dialed 
in then also put them in positions where let's   say you brought the dog up here and and you know 
i'd put put somebody face down ass up behind that   that chest right there with both their their 
legs sticking out is that the dog may come in   at the side of the thigh you know and if they 
come in confused at first then i would come i'd   grab the dog i'd pull him back and kind of 
let him you know almost [ __ ] with him and   have the guy move his leg and move it up and down 
and incite that prey drive get him fired up and   let him go pull him back let him go pull him back 
and then finally let him go or staple him on and   get him to take that because you may run into a 
scenario in a police or military application or   even personal protection where you know somebody's 
hanging out of a [ __ ] window or they're under a   vehicle or you know i showed you that picture of 
one of the police dogs i sold that grabbed a guy   underneath the wheel well of a big 
[ __ ] cement truck or whatever and   you know that that was the first thing that 
it came to and they grabbed it so you want to   do both you know teach targeting at first but 
then also teach the dog that in in situations   where it can't get to one of those targeting areas 
that it will take whatever the [ __ ] is there i   mean those bites are um it's down to the bone yeah 
it's not like a little pinhole it's several holes   in your flesh down to the [ __ ] bone i mean 
you can see the tendons and and um damn i'm you   know uh like i said i've never worked with dogs 
overseas but i have um talked to guys that have   said that um there are times where they won't even 
make room entry um to go if they're after uh like   an hvt or something and they will just send the 
dog in um and um and a lot of times that person   may uh actually just come out if they announce hey 
if you don't [ __ ] come out we're not coming in   but we're gonna send the [ __ ] dog in and um 
i've heard from several different guys that   a lot of times that person will [ __ ] actually 
come out because they don't want anything to do   with the dog because rumors out that 
they are you know that [ __ ] vicious   are these dogs getting kills uh i mean 
it's it's happened a few times um but   it's really a classic example of what i just 
talked about and that environmentally the   situation terrain wise and and the environment 
combined presented the situation where that's   just where the dog happened to to come in on 
entry and you know the person's throat was there   or something of that nature um i've heard of of 
instances of you know if it's an older really   skinny guy and it's a big [ __ ] long snouted hard 
biting [ __ ] that gets him you know in the thigh   where you know it'll break a femur and sever 
a femoral artery uh you know something of that   nature but those are very rare instances um you 
know the dogs you know of all of the apprehensions   that happen nationwide worldwide whatever you're 
talking about you know a fraction of a fraction of   a percentage you know they're really anomalies 
and and fluke kind of things you know the dogs   aren't taught to go after throats or nuts or 
or anything like that they're they're generally   taught to target ex external limbs you know 
extremities yeah but you know again sometimes   you know if they get somebody bad enough 
and they bleed out or you know the person's   got a heart condition and they're on [ __ ] drugs 
or you know something like that maybe it induces   a heart attack or you know but again those are 
are very very rare instances where something like   that happens i i would i would kind of equate it 
to like a taser you know they're both non-lethal   means of of apprehension uh have there 
been people that have died after being   tased yes but it's it's very [ __ ] rare 
you know maybe it causes a heart attack or   um you know they [ __ ] stiffen up and they fall 
and they hit their head on a [ __ ] curve and   you know whatever but man but it's still you 
know dogs overwhelmingly are are considered and   i would consider them non-lethal uh means of of 
apprehension i mean [ __ ] man i mean even just   the fact that you said that oh you're trying dogs 
to hit uh in here you know on the inner bicep i   mean [ __ ] your brachial artery yeah you know and 
uh and uh from what i felt in a [ __ ] bite suit   uh that dog would have been in my brachial artery 
artery in about [ __ ] 0.2 seconds yeah but um wow just a second here um kind of 
wrapping up by force what would   what is the worst uh bite you've 
ever seen from from from a dog   uh probably the the one that uh benny talked about 
uh you know his dog diego was in uh was in iraq   and it was a an ambush scenario where they 
they were you know understanding that they were   about to be ambushed and they sent the dog and 
the just the way that the it was like a palm grove   or something like that and they had some sandbags 
set up where it was just kind of a little gun port   the barrel sticking out of it kind of aimed 
down and the guy was behind it sitting you know   with his face and neck right right through that 
gunport and diego air centered him came flying   through and jammed his muzzle right through 
the [ __ ] air uh you know the port there   and that's just where the dude's facing so just 
you know because that's what was there he shot in   right on his [ __ ] throat i mean i wasn't there i 
didn't see it but um you know in terms of stories   that i've heard you know when they came up it 
was the guy was already basically unconscious and   and probably dead or almost dead and you know it 
sounded like uh the dog was breaking [ __ ] celery   you know in the esophagus and just [ __ ] 
mutilating that [ __ ] you know diego's a hard   pretty hard biting dog and pretty pretty forward 
in that in that manner too so um you know you know   again in a situation like that where it's 
kind of a fluke thing that's pretty pretty   gnarly you know but uh yeah i'd say you know the 
femur another story of a guy again it was a thin   uh a thin older guy a dog was a big hard 
biting 90 pound [ __ ] got a long muzzle and   got in on his inner thigh and broke his femur 
and and yeah i passed out and you know [ __ ] him   up pretty bad um you know things like that 
aren't uncommon i mean the dog that i showed   you that picture of the i mean i still have a 
pretty good sized scar on my forearm where the   dog bit all the way through the bite suit and 
filleted my [ __ ] forearm open that dog was a   was a law enforcement dog here in the united 
states that uh had uh i don't know 15 16 live   bites i think and and they were all [ __ ] 
gruesome because it was just that hard biting   of a dog one of them was he bit the guy in the 
back of his leg he was hidden in a [ __ ] tree   stump and the first part he got to was 
you know right behind the uh behind the   knee upper calf area and peeled his entire 
[ __ ] calf muscle completely off of his leg   you know again just like the um the duct work 
scenario is that it was just you know from   the back of his knee to his achilles tendon was 
just [ __ ] bone and nothing else there you know   when you get a dog that's that's angry uh that 
bites that hard that is well trained and has some   time to to work that person over wherever they 
grab is is generally gonna be uh [ __ ] destroyed   you know yeah so damn well uh that's some pretty 
gruesome [ __ ] yeah talk [ __ ] get bit right   but uh like i saw a shirt with that on it 
i think it was your shirt but uh hey let's   take a quick commercial break and when we come 
back we'll pick up i got a great question so   i hope you guys are enjoying the show 
i think this is a pretty good one   hit pause go over to vigilanceelite.com   pick yourself up one of these sweet shirts and if 
you're lucky maybe these hats will be in stock too all right we're back from the break and 
uh kind of want to get into some of the   tactics and stuff that um these 
dogs are doing and uh you know   uh back to your book i was listening 
to it and uh it made me realize that   the dogs are i mean they're essentially they're 
they're a [ __ ] they're a part of the team and uh   you had rattled off a lot of things 
that they do and it made me realize that   these dogs are actually they seem like 
they're [ __ ] actual operators yeah   um you know when you when you list them all 
out like that together i mean they repel   they jump out of planes they swim they attack 
they track people um and the list goes on but uh which which is [ __ ] amazing you know free 
fall rappelling jumping fast roping swimming all   that [ __ ] um one thing i'm curious 
about is uh if they do send a dog in   and uh say it is an hvt situation for those of you 
that don't know what an hvt is it's a high value   target and uh that's uh somebody that's high 
on the kill list i thought it was huge vagina   tunnel that's not is that what it is i thought 
that's what it was i've been [ __ ] misinformed   but uh but um if a dog makes entry um and 
they are looking for an hvt and there are   civilians um you know that don't uh to innocence 
is there a way the dog actually [ __ ] knows you   know um do they have uh any level of target 
identification um there are instances where   they've displayed that uh and it's i think 
it speaks more to the intuition of the dogs   uh or the intuition of the dog and their 
level of confidence in terms of knowing   what's threatening versus not uh it's a great 
story of a handler that shared with me that   they sent the dog in and uh you know they 
did a call out basically where you know   hey everybody [ __ ] come out the person that 
they wanted to come out didn't come out and uh   this [ __ ] [ __ ] bag i think was a mother 
uh left their [ __ ] newborn baby like in a   a little [ __ ] bassinet or whatever 
on the floor in one of the rooms uh and   there were you know other grown men in there or 
whatever but long story short the dog went in   located the baby sniffed it and [ __ ] kept 
moving wow and ended up and going and biting the   right guy now for for me that's less about target 
identification because they have no real concept   of that i think that's more of the context of 
never [ __ ] you know going after little children   you know in thousands or hundreds of training 
scenarios of always biting grown [ __ ] men   that are displaying aggressive tendencies etc 
but also a dog being confident enough to walk   into a room be like you know no different than you 
you see dogs that you know are pretty nasty with   adults or they're good hunting dogs or even good 
protection dogs that'll let a puppy [ __ ] with   them and bite them and nip at them and they'll 
kind of roll over and play with them dogs aren't   [ __ ] dumb you know and so they know what's worth 
being uh worried about or not most of the time um   you know to your question again there there 
have been instances where you know they did   a remarkable job at discerning you know women and 
children and non-combatants and people just kind   of [ __ ] milling about and ignoring the dog and 
whatever and going after somebody that had the   intent i think it's more about that is that you 
know if there's a room filled with 10 [ __ ] grown   men and one of them has a machine gun and is angry 
and waiting for american forces to come through   because he wants to kill him there's going to be a 
very different [ __ ] vibe coming off of that guy   than the other nine that are scared shitless and 
have no weapons and have no no ill intent i think   it's more about that than it is anything else but 
okay but there are instances of the dog going in   and just nuking the first [ __ ] that they come 
in contact with that happens also um you know   so there's just a lot going on and and you know 
there's not a cookie cutter answer to that really   but okay good you know maybe i don't know you 
know may seem like a kind of a weird question but   you know from where i was at two weeks ago 
before i kind of started researching into   where i'm at now now i'm on the complete opposite 
end of the spectrum where i'm starting to realize   just exactly how [ __ ] capable these dogs are and 
uh you know where where's the limit you know what   where there's where do the capabilities end yeah 
but um and i'm still trying to figure that out but   but um you know kind of um for the handlers 
um you know when and i'm going to relate   this to a jtac you know and uh you know 
sometimes guys will take credit for a kill   um more times than not i think it's multiple guys 
that shoot the target or the you know the threat   and uh so essentially it's not one person 
that takes credit uh you know for a kill   um an exception being j tax you know if they 
call in a uh fast mover or or uh you know direct   air support and uh get i don't know 100 [ __ ] 
kills um a lot of times a jtag that that's his   he takes credit for that you know maybe even more 
so than the pilot and uh i've heard on several of   your podcasts um if you'll say this dog particular 
dog got a bite or the handle or got a bite and so   i'm kind of wondering if that is uh i'm kind of 
wondering if that is kind of the same kind of uh   accomplishment you know maybe a poor choice of 
words i don't know but [ __ ] it who gives a   [ __ ] uh there's a bite you know is it 
kill you know like i killed that person   there's a handlers and you know he gets credit 
for the bite and is it um is it on the same level   it absolutely is i mean that's that's 
kind of the the measuring stick of   of handlers you know dick measuring their dog 
versus you know i got [ __ ] 16 bites or 50   bites or this dog had over 100 bites you know 
or whatever same thing with either drug fines   or explosive fines like yes dog found [ __ ] 97 
ieds on this deployment or whatever so for sure   it's a measuring stick but i also think that just 
like with most operators is they they realize that   you know a lot of times people are just in 
the right place at the right time and they're   presented with opportunities that that a lot of 
other handlers aren't most people realize that   you know just like like i said most operators 
realize wow this [ __ ] this platoon at this   team got [ __ ] you know 400 [ __ ] kills in this 
deployment it's like you know they were in the   right [ __ ] place the right time whereas you know 
this group maybe got six yeah you know so there   is some of that as well but uh to your question 
yes absolutely the number of bites and fines are   are a point of pride and bragging rights and a 
bit of a measuring stick for handlers absolutely   oh god do you think this uh traumatizes the dogs 
at all after you know being in service or is this   you know i mean do they does it affect them like 
humans you know what i mean it does uh or it can   uh it's a little different in that it's generally 
a negative association with a certain stimulus   so it could be gunfire it could be helicopter 
noises it could be the sound of uh you know a   tank turret i mean [ __ ] just like with you know 
the way that we teach them to do certain things   through repetition is that they can they can learn 
to be stressed out by certain things you know no   different than dogs with you know thunder it may 
start out as the first time they ever heard it it   startled them but then now every time they heard 
it the next 30 [ __ ] times it startled but now   it's you know created into this it's been created 
into this uh you know monstrosity in terms of   that dog completely shutting down 
and blowing its anal glands when it   when it thunders because they're so scared 
of it is that it's that same association   the the symptoms that that manifest uh from 
ptsd and canines are are fairly similar to   human beings shutting down uh being reactively 
aggressive um you know things of that nature   where there's a huge disparity is in how you 
treat them uh to a certain extent anyway is   that you know human beings are going to try to 
rationalize it they're going to think about that   they may dwell on it they may ask why they you 
know dogs don't don't really do that there's   just an association so the good news is if you 
think of it like a piggy bank is that you've   got all these negative coins in a piggy bank as 
it relates to we'll say gunfire and so you can   replace those negative coins with positive ones 
and essentially rewrite the hard drive of the dog   in contextual association with that stimuli so 
the way that we do it is uh if it's gunfire as an   example is that i'd use like a 22 300 yards away 
while i'm playing tug or playing ball with a dog   so it's it's barely [ __ ] registering while 
i'm doing something that he really enjoys and   there's a prey element there again like we talked 
about is that that's going to help relieve stress   and then maybe it's you know 20 to 
100 yards away and then 50 and then   right next to them and then it's 
a 45 caliber pistol or a [ __ ] ak   500 yards away and then you're slowly moving 
it in and you're just desensitizing the dog and   rewriting that that negative association with with 
positive ones very very carefully and slowly over   time so you can get rid of those types of issues 
and dogs i think quite a bit easier than you can   with people because it's just very cut and dry 
black and white that way really yeah do you think   uh do you think dogs like with us you know you 
had mentioned uh yesterday you know you wanted to   screen and go to damn neck you wanted to take 
it to the next level you wanted more action   and you know uh i i myself deal with that a lot 
of guys deal with that you know you get a taste   and then you want more and you want more you want 
more because you like the way it makes you feel   and do you think a dog that has the more the 
more bites a dog gets do they get addicted   to that [ __ ] adrenaline to that action to 
that uh that feeling that they get they do   they do not only does that take place uh i mean 
you see it look at the you know duke when he   first came out versus you know the next time 
or like you know once he realizes what's going   on he wants to do it he wants to keep doing 
it you know until he's [ __ ] exhausted and   repetitions that are independent of of 
each other in in other words there's a   space of time a period of time in between when 
that's happening that yeah it's magnified that way   on top of that is that especially with a bite dog 
where they're they're going into combating a human   being that's four five six times their size um 
and and they're and they're defeating something   that's bigger than them you know the more times 
that happens the more confident they become   and and in some instances the harder they are 
to deal with because they it's kind of like a   dog that's used to growling at people and and 
getting them to [ __ ] back off and you know   they're pumping out people because they're 
growling and [ __ ] bullying people and they   get used to that and they get even more 
confident a dog that you know goes in and   [ __ ] annihilates somebody for real uh yeah over 
time it absolutely emboldens them even more and   makes them more and more confident most of the 
time do you think they ever develop like a uh an addiction to the taste of blood not 
to the taste of blood no i don't i think   you hear hear people say well once a dog tastes 
blood i think it's total total [ __ ] and i think   it's the genetic drive that they have to do that 
coupled with the training and experiences that   they have that are positively associated with 
getting to do that kind of [ __ ] and they're   just driven for it you know i don't think it has 
anything to do with uh with that wow well you've   trained uh dogs for seal teams for several 
different agencies for law enforcement swat   teams [ __ ] you name it uh every unit somewhere 
almost every unit seems to have a mike ritland dog   have you ever trained a dog and i'm 
getting into the warrior dog foundation   have you trained any dogs that have gone to 
work and then come back to uh your foundation   i have there was a and it was a seal dog on top 
of that which was really [ __ ] cool is that   it was a dog that uh wayne dodge and i um brought 
into the program he selected the dog overseas   that was right when i got there as a 
trainer and so you know as the dog showed up   we put him through his first handler 
course with his first handler   entire first workup for uh you know for 
that deployment the dog deployed with   with that handler and then it had 
a different handler after that several years later the dog ends up coming uh 
to the warrior dog foundation after he had been   retired from that program um they're they're 
the first two handlers that the dog had or   the two handlers that the dog had neither one of 
them could take the dog one because of a family   situation the other was still on active duty 
so we had the dog for several years with the   warrior dog foundation and then taylor canfield 
is his name is the former seal race car driver   um came came to the ranch and uh and came and 
adopted him a couple years ago now he's had him   now for a couple of years so to have that kind of 
full circle uh impact with a dog was was really   special it was neat to to be able to do that no 
[ __ ] well that answers one of my questions so   so this stuff with all that [ __ ] action i was 
gonna actually ask if uh you think that some   sort of therapy could uh you know um a dog that 
has seen that much action and comes to your uh   your foundation if therapy or you know whatever 
you want to call it can uh can rehab that dog   to uh be able to you know live more of a uh 
uh pet life yeah and was that guy a handler   he was i mean he was a nascar driver yeah so 
he was actually that dog's handler and that's   what was so neat about it is that you know so he 
was very comfortable and used to the dog to your   point slash question of uh you know do we have 
the ability to rehab some of these dogs and and   get them out into more civilian type settings yes 
i would say that uh you know to put up it would   be impossible to put a percentage on it uh just 
off the top of my head but i would say that it's   more dogs um you know are not really in that 
category than the ones that we can do that with   but we have done it with a number of dogs we've 
also been able to repurpose some of the dogs where   they come in and they're they're actually young 
enough to where we spend enough time with them and   then and then find the right fit department-wise 
that's maybe a little better equipped to handle a   dog that's that kind of dog and have been able to 
send some of the dogs that we've brought in after   you know several months of rehab to back out 
and then they go on and work several more years   which is a pretty neat neat thing to be able to 
repurpose these dogs if if they can do it what   is the what is the average working time frame 
of the job i'd say about seven six seven years   i mean from from three to eight or nine for a 
dual purpose dog is is about it you know five   five to seven years um sometimes it may be two to 
ten it may be you know three and a half to six i   mean a lot like uh you know another parallel with 
with humans and dogs is that you know some seals   operate for 30 [ __ ] years and some do one [ __ ] 
you know one enlistment one deployment and that's   that's it you know and so um it's kind of that 
same way um you know there are times where dogs do   one deployment and it's a it's a hard you know op 
tempo driven deployment and they they went through   a lot and it just [ __ ] kind of ruined them and 
and they're just never the same and and they have   to retire them after that i mean that that does 
happen i wouldn't say that it's that it's often   yeah but it but there are instances where that's 
the case what are some of the things you're doing   with these guys with these dogs uh you know at the 
foundation so most of it is is using food uh and   just playing ball and and kind of exercise you 
know using good food and positive reinforcement   with food to kind of unwind their mind uh take the 
pressure of of having to perform and operate off   of them entirely we're really not asking anything 
of them in the way that we're getting them to just   do basic stuff like putting a muzzle on going 
into a crate going back into their kennel run   being able to have their teeth brushed or a 
veterinary exam or bathed you know using food and   lots of positive reinforcement and taking it slow 
with doing those types of things that historically   are some of the reasons why a lot of them end up 
you know with us is that you know the handler's   trying to do certain things with him and he's and 
the dog's biting the [ __ ] out of the handler or   the handler's family members or other 
cops or just the wrong people because   you know for a number of reasons so we try to 
desensitize the dogs to all that that type of   triggering type of behavior that that has 
landed them with us that's our primary goal is   to both act as a resource or 
a sanctuary so that the dog   won't be euthanized and then rehabilitate that 
dog based on on why it's here in the first place   and try to try to balance that out a little bit so 
that they're they're a little bit more manageable   and ultimately and hopefully get them to a uh 
you know civilian household and have him live   more like like a pet do you think uh i mean have 
you maybe you've already done it but you think   a dog like that that um comes your foundation 
who's seen who knows how much [ __ ] combat a lot   is it possible or has it happened to 
where uh they could go and live with a   a normal family not somebody that was a handler 
not a pro uh like yourself like like someone like   uh like me yeah yeah we we have done that with a 
number of dogs yes um which is a great feeling to   be able to do that uh i'd say there's a lot of 
them that we haven't been able to do that with   that you know if we do adopt them out it needs to 
go to somebody that really understands these dogs   and can provide that type of of an environment for 
them but but yeah we have we've had a number of   dogs that when they first came in they you know 
they came in because they were a handful and a   bit a bunch of people and and they just needed uh 
that kind of pause of of being able to to unwind   and take the the pressure off and then also a 
big component to that is educating the the new   the new handlers and you know we've got some 
requirements for anybody listening out there   that you know potentially wants to you've got to 
own your own home you've got to have a privacy   fenced in backyard uh no other pets and no 
young kids you know those are things that   we just won't uh won't budge 
on won't compromise on because   what what you need to understand is that no matter 
how much rehab you do is the fact is that they're   proven biters they've proven you know that they've 
made the wrong decision enough times to land them   with us in the first place so it would be 
um irresponsible of us to put that dog in a   position to make that same mistake again and so it 
needs to be an environment where you know if push   comes to shove you have people that physically 
are capable enough to at least keep the dog from   you know doing serious serious damage um you know 
and if if there's young kids or other pets and   other stimulus in the house that you know 
could potentially trigger that dog it's   just it would be foolish to put them back in 
that environment so yeah i can see that um   what is it if you had to put an average 
you know i'm asking for an average not a   what is it what does the timeline look 
like for a dog what is the recovery process   or not the process but the recovery 
timeline of you know this dog is um   mean as [ __ ] you know traumatized uh 
wants to [ __ ] bite everything it seems to   it's time you know we think he's ready yeah that's 
a little family yeah it's hard to put an average   because they're they're all as individual as we 
are you know it's the same question as you know   how long does it take most ptsd vets to recover 
from that you know it's like some of them never do   some of them a couple of weeks yeah you know 
looking back historically on that me at this   point we've taken in almost 200 dogs in the 
last you know 11 10 years um you know i would   say generally five six months you know if it's 
kind of where you know after a few months you   have a good idea like yeah i think this dog is 
going to be able to be turned around we've seen   a ton of progress in that few months a few more 
months and they'll probably be where they're at   that's you know generally the 
timeline where i would say   you know just thinking back of all the dogs that 
we've done that with is that that's about you know   what it took there's some dogs that you know 
within a couple of weeks i'm like yeah that's   this dog for sure is is going to be a dog we can 
do and maybe it's even a little quicker than that   there's many instances where a dog will come in 
and in the first few days this dog is probably not   going to leave here you can tell that question 
sometimes sometimes yeah i mean with humans uh   you know they say that uh you know with uh when 
it comes to ptsd and uh [ __ ] like that that   it's kind of a lifetime struggle 
and uh he may improve but uh   chances are it's never gonna completely go away 
yeah is it the same for dogs you think it will   ever completely go away or is there always 
a little edge i think that uh you know it's   it it's hard to say that um that it completely 
goes away or not because the the biggest factor is   getting it to subside from a triggering 
standpoint and then putting them in a   position where you're you're not going to have 
them in the position to trigger it anymore anyway   so i mean you don't really know i suspect that 
it's probably kind of similar that way and that   um you know even if years go by of good rehab 
and never put them in that position that if you   put them in the positions that that elicited 
that response you know a time or a couple of   times it would probably come back easier 
than it than it uh its initial onset   no different than like [ __ ] 
heat stroke you know i think   just logically it's easy to ascertain that 
that would would be the case that if you   put them in that same position several times or 
enough times then yeah it's gonna come back if   it came there in the first place from nothing for 
sure it can come back if it's already happened so   the key really is educating the new the new owners 
like here are the problems that that he had that   landed him with us in the first place here's 
what you need to ensure so that you can kind   of do your best to guarantee that you'll mitigate 
any potential instances of of that recurring issue   do you think um another thing uh and it's [ 
__ ] crazy how similar it is to uh humans but   you know with humans um just like 
anything you know some guys with uh   with ptsd that come home uh it's all about the 
work you put in if you wanna [ __ ] get better   then you gotta put the work in to get better 
if you're not gonna put the work in then you're   gonna be [ __ ] miserable forever yeah and uh 
so uh do the dogs go through any kind of uh   decision making process or is 
dc dogs that are more willing to   i don't know what i'm trying to say here 
but no i know i know what you mean i mean   i think that's that's one of the very 
big differences between humans and dogs   is that you know on the it's it's really not 
really about the dog so much as it is you know the   the human beings that are putting them 
through those paces um i i think where   where the where the factors put in play whether 
or not that dog can can make that kind of recovery   is how bad did it get you know how many 
times did it did it trigger the dog   after after it was an issue how many times did 
it continue to happen and continue to shut the   dog down and make him spiral further 
down you know how much baggage is there   is the first factor and then the second 
factor is just uh you know the genetic plasticity of the dog's brain as it relates to 
being able to heal in that regard and i think   that's largely largely genetic i i don't see it 
being an effort issue on the dog's part i mean if   you put them in a position and do the things that 
you're supposed to do with them because they have   all the genetics and drive to to do the work to 
begin with they're gonna they're gonna do it uh   either way it's it's really more up to the human 
being and how bad uh it got before they decided to   wash them out and try to rehab them i think okay 
well mike i could uh drag this on all day uh i   have questions for days but uh i want to end it i 
know you want to hit the road and get home but uh   closing this thing out i just want to say you know 
what um i mean i cannot think of a [ __ ] better   person you know to uh be training dogs to go to 
these teams to seal teams to you know sf teams   to swat teams um you know knowing the tactics and 
uh and being an operator yourself i'm sure that   you've come up with things that you know a typical 
trainer could never um think of and i just i mean   between what you're doing with that and 
and and the warrior dog foundation i mean   damn man you're doing animals [ __ ] solid uh no 
doubt about it and uh so if you want to donate to   mike um you know war dog foundation all his 
uh social media websites everything will be   linked in the description but you're a solid 
[ __ ] man i mean damn you know i appreciate   the kind words i mean to me i i just enjoy 
working with dogs i'm i'm fascinated by them i   i marvel at their uh their capability and 
and just the things that they're able to   accomplish and how many lives of our brothers 
and fellow countrymen that they've saved and uh   you know i just i i feel like we owe it to them 
you know to to do our very best for them because   they do that for us you know um some of it's 
genetic but they're just you know they're they're   creatures that i i honestly i think we don't 
[ __ ] deserve but uh but they're yeah they're   phenomenal and and i i can't imagine not uh not 
being a part of them you know so yeah i appreciate   the platform and having me on and i could talk 
about them [ __ ] non-stop too i usually do   so yeah well nice work man i appreciate it 
can't wait to make that documentary amen

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